Philosophers on social media, blogs, and other platforms have been increasingly  discussing the Student Union ban on the Nietzsche Club at University College London  in the last day or so. Sorry I'm not providing links, because I'm not looking for an online rumble, but here are some links to news stories. The first thing to say is that this ban is horrendous and the second is that it has been lifted pending legal advice. What also needs to be understood is that the student union decision was not an attempt to ban discussion of Nietzsche, though it certainly circumscribes discussion of Nietzsche in UCL student union facilities.

The ban was in reaction to a poster of the 'Nietzsche Club' advertising discussion of Alain de Benoist and Julius Evola, alongside Heidegger and Nietzsche. Benoist is the founding and presiding figure of the 'Nouvelle Droite' (New Right, but not to be confused with the Anglosphere free market New Right of the 1980s) in France, which is anti-globalist and anti-free market, also opposing cultural pluralism within nations. Julius Evola (1898-1974) was a writer on southern Asian religion and spirituality, and known to some only in that role. He was also an advocate of authoritarianism, hierarchy and 'tradition',  with tradition to be understood as inherently anti-democratic, anti-egalitarian, and anti-modern. Like Benoist now, he liked to present


himself as a thinker above political parties, and had some disagreements with the Italian Fascist regime through which he lived. However, his thought clearly connects with Fascism in various ways, and was certainly not fighting Fascism in Italy, or connected movements in other European countries. His criticisms of Fascism in Italy and National Socialism in Germany are from the point of view of aristocratic elitism and a desire for rule by a spiritual-aristocratic elite. He is frequently classified as a 'Traditionalist', which is to say anti-modern elitist way of thinking. It is a way of thinking that overlaps with Fascism, but is not necessarily the same thing. There is after all more than one way of being anti-democratic and anti-modern.

There are clearly some ways in which Nietzsche overlaps with this current, and there are reasons why ultra-conservative anti-democrats might be interested in his work. I don't think that Nietzsche's thought can be fully contained within such a doctrine, for reasons which include his consistent rejection of the supernatural and his way of using science an antidote to metaphysics and tradition.

The 'Nietzsche Club' at UCL was previously known as 'Tradition UCL' and it is clear enough in the main news reports that the Student Union is targeting 'Traditionalism' rather than Nietzsche. The Student Union in this case means the Council, which appears as if often the case, to be dominated  by members of far left groups elected by a very small proportion of students with voting rights.  Its assumption that is has the right to form a kind of Committee of Public Safety directed against fascism and associated dangers including 'anti-worker' ideology, through bans on freedom of speech and association  is profoundly depressing and wrong.

It must also be said that a lot of people who are shocked and outraged at the supposed ban on a Nietzsche club would be a lot less so if they have spent enough time reading the news reports to realise that the ban is on a far right 'Traditionalist' club. Sadly at least some of the people who are horrified by a ban on Nietzsche discussion would be more accepting of a ban on far right activity on campus. Presuming such activity is peaceful, and while recognising there is some debate to be had about what constitutes 'peaceful', it should be clear to anyone who claims to be a democrat or a liberal of any kind that students have the right to form 'Traditionalist' clubs as much as they have the right to form clubs purely about the philosophy of Nietzsche. Those who doubt this might like to think about how it is possible to exclude bans on notable thinkers like Nietzsche, who have been taken up some on the far right, whatever you might think about their understanding. 

On some broader issues round the ban and the reaction to it. I don't think it is a good idea to assume that Traditionalism equals Fascism equals Nazism. I oppose all three, and they have areas of overlap, but an enthusiasm for Evola's spiritual-aristocratic elitism is not the same as advocating the crimes of the Third Reich. Mussolini was appalling but rather less so than Hitler. National Socialism in Germany was influenced by Italian Fascism, but was always more extreme and had its own roots in the extremes of social darwinism, anti-Semitism, and Nordic-Aryan race fantasies.  

On the broad issues of Nietzsche interpretation, I do not think it is a good idea to try to extract Nietzsche from unpleasant political associations by suggesting he was straightforwardly non or anti-political. He did not write an obvious treatise on political philosophy, though Cambridge University Press have treated the Genealogy in this way by publishing it in the Cambridge Texts in the History of Poltical Thought series, but the totality of remarks in Nietzsche on the state, law, justice, political leaders, the politics of his time and various moments in history,  ideas of 'contract' and other concepts in political philosophy, and so on, do add up to a very considerable legacy in political thought.

A legacy confirmed by the large bibliography of political discussion of Nietzsche. That bibliography contains a very wide range of views on how to take Nietzsche politically, so it is surely best to be reserved about saying what Nietzsche was for or against politically. Nietzsche was certainly a critic of socialism and egalitarianism, this is a very different matter to  to support for the authoritarian right, and certainly any attempt at totalitarian politics. 

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24 responses to “The UCL Student Union ban is on ‘Traditionalism’ rather than Nietzsche”

  1. Will Avatar
    Will

    I’ve taught Evola in classes (in part as a way to talk about anti-semitism) and cited Benoist in scholarly work about the Body of Light. To lump them in with Nietzsche is too ignore all of Nietzsche’s subtlety, but thinking about any of them as simplistic fascists or Nazis is reductionist in the extreme. I’m grateful to Barry Stocker for being sensitive to these nuances.
    There are many more productive ways to resist fascism than shutting down conversations. Thanks to NewAPPS for handling this so well.

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  2. Tim Avatar
    Tim

    “The Student Union in this case means the Council, which appears as if often the case, to be dominated by members of far left groups elected by a very small proportion of students with voting rights.”
    I don’t understand. At UCL as at other universities in the UK, all students – undergrad and postgrad – are entitled to vote in student union elections, are they not?

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  3. Barry Stocker Avatar

    What I meant is that a very small proportion of students use their voting rights, not that a very small proportion of students have voting rights

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  4. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    Tim: I am guessing most students don’t vote.

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  5. Tim Avatar
    Tim

    I misread it – my bad.

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  6. Eric Winsberg Avatar
    Eric Winsberg

    As I understand it, the ban wasn’t just not only about Nietzsche, it was not only about reading any figure, including Evola. They claim the original posters were not about authors or texts at all, but about stopping political correctness and multiculturalism on campus. The Nietzsche business was just a cover, and involved a name change and email address change after the student union got agitated.
    I still dont think a ban is appropriate. But I dont think the ban should be discussed in terms of the discussion of any intellectual figures.

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  7. Barry Stocker Avatar

    Eric, I don’t see the meaningful distinction between the ‘discussing Evola’ issue and the ‘stopping political correctness and multiculturalism on campus’ issue. They are clearly tied together in the minds of both ‘Nietzsche Club’/’Tradition UCL’ and the Student Union Council. The issues were tied together in the poster at the centre of this, and in the statement from the Council. The statement from the Council, as reported in the links I provide is very much along the lines of defining Evola as in the same space as Fascism and therefore beyond toleration. To say the least, the Council did not make a clear distinction between banning discussion of certain thinkers and banning organised opposition to multiculturalism (and other associated sins) from Student Union premises. They would perhaps generously tolerate meetings to condemn Evola, clearly it is beyond the bounds of tolerance in their minds for sympathisers with Evola to discuss Evola and associated ideas about opposing multiculturalism.

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  8. Eric Winsberg Avatar
    Eric Winsberg

    Since some of the facts here are murky, let me tell a fable:
    At the university of New South West Dakolina, there is a prohibition against hate speech and policy of actively encourage applications for admission from members of under-represented groups. A group of students want to organize in an effort to repeal these policies. They put up posters that say “are you sick of political correctness? Tired of losing your admission spot to a less qualified applicant? Come to an organizational meeting tomorrow at 3pm!”. At the bottom of the poster is an email address: whitepower@gmail.com The student council finds these posters and meetings alarming, so moves to have the group banned. In response, the group changes its name to “The Nietzsche Club” and its email address to “NietzchePizza@gmail.com” and it puts pictures of FN and Evola on its posters. The student council continues to move to have this group banned.
    What should we be talking about in these circumstances? Not, in my opinion, about whether it is OK to ban discussion of intellectual figures we find unsavory. That is red herring.

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  9. bjk Avatar
    bjk

    Nobody’s saying they can’t discuss these ideas, but maybe a university isn’t the proper place to do it. They should find a pizza shop or something and discuss them there if they like.

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  10. David Wallace Avatar
    David Wallace

    bjk: that seems right to me. Universities need to actively police the ideas that can be discussed in their space to make sure they stay within the comfortable cultural mainstream – and it’s particularly crucial that they do so when those ideas are politically unappealing to their student leadership. The pizza shop, not the university, is the right place for free association and the free expression of ideas, however unpalatable.

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  11. Philippe Lemoine Avatar
    Philippe Lemoine

    Thanks for this excellent post, it is nice to finally read something sensible on this outrageous affair. It is probably true, unfortunately, that many people, even philosophers, would not have cared much about this, had the students who voted the motion that banned this club not smeared Nietzsche. I wish more people would take a clear stance against the illiterate thugs who voted that motion.

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  12. Sam Clark Avatar

    I’m with Eric Winsberg on this. The UCL Union motion overreaches, but its central concern is not about the discussion of ideas, it’s that Tradition UCL/The Nietzsche Club is a front for far right organization and recruiting on their campus. A quick read through e.g. http://www.traditionalbritain.org/about gives some substance to that concern: Traditional Britain are ‘radical and futuristic’ traditionalists who think that ‘the belief in egalitarianism … has castrated discussion and silenced great minds’ and who want to further ‘kinship, family, duty, faith, uniqueness, hierarchy, community, sovereignty, authority, nation, identity, liberty, justice, truth, beauty, and excellence’. This should all sound familiar to anyone who’s read some twentieth-century history. More information at http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/archive/traditional-britain-the-new-revolutionary-conservatives
    Is a ban the right response here? I don’t know. But discussing the matter as if we were all in John Stuart Mill’s study having a reasoned exchange of views before the taking of a toast and tea is point-missing.

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  13. Eric Winsberg Avatar

    To be clear, I’m not agreeing with the ban. But I think we are letting them get away with something if we allow the situation to be portrayed as one in which the student leadership tried to ban discussion of philosophical figures.

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  14. ajkreider Avatar
    ajkreider

    Well, it’s also at least a little about the discussion of ideas, if the Student Union proposal is to be believed:
    http://uclu.org/system/files/agenda-attachments/uc130407.pdf
    They pretty much say that the study of Nietzsche and Heidegger is evidence of fascist leanings (because these guys were fascists). And not just fascist, but also “anti-Marxist”. And that this kind of thought shouldn’t be allowed on campus because:
    “That fascism is used by the ruling class to divide workers and students along ethnic,national, religious, and gender lines, as a measure to split them and thus weaken their effectiveness as a force and undermine their resistance to policies of austerity, attacks on living standards and public services, and other consequences of the crisis of the capitalist system.”
    Perhaps they just let the temptation of soaring rhetoric get the better of them, but that sounds like their target is non-Marxists generally. I’m sure some groups should be banned from campus, and maybe this is one, but the test should be severe. Not, I take it, being anti-Marxist, or even publicly opposing things like affirmative action policies or speech codes (as Winsberg suggests).

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  15. Eric Winsberg Avatar

    I think its hard to believe the students think they can ban all “anti-Marxist” groups. So, I think it likely they let soaring rhetoric get the better of them. And let me be clear again that I am not in favor of banning any kind of assembly unless they are organizing to commit violence or other similar acts. But I think it is unfortunate that these students allowed themselves to be portrayed as wanting to restrict the discussion of ideas when it looks to me more like they were trying to restrict a kind of political activism. I realize there is a fine line between these two kinds of activities, but still.

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  16. Philippe Lemoine Avatar
    Philippe Lemoine

    First, I don’t think the distinction between a political organization and a group devoted to the discussion of political ideas is particularly interesting, at least in the context of this discussion. People who study political ideas generally have motivations for doing so which are not purely intellectual, but also political in a broad sense of the term, which I think is absolutely unproblematic and, in any case, probably inevitable.
    Many serious exegetes of Marx, perhaps most of them, are Marxist who are not just trying to make sense of Marx, but also to convince people that he was right. This doesn’t make what they say on Marx any less valuable and it certainly doesn’t mean that, when they are discussing Marx, they are only trying to convince people that he was right and not also trying to make sense of what he said.
    The students who voted the motion against the Nietzsche Club claim that its members have links to right-wing political organizations. As far as I can tell, they offer no evidence for this claim, but I have no doubt that it’s true. Indeed, given what they wrote on their posters and the authors they want to discuss, what would be surprising is if they did not have any connections to right-wing political organizations.
    But it doesn’t mean that, when they meet to discuss Nietzsche, Evola and de Benoist, they are not genuinely trying to understand their thought. Again, if you look at people who are running a discussion group about Marx, you’re likely to find that most are involved in various left-wing political organizations, but that doesn’t mean they are not genuinely trying to understand Marx’s though when they meet to discuss it. (In both cases, whether they are successful is a different matter, but one which is completely irrelevant here.)
    One doesn’t need to know much about Julius Evola and Alain de Benoist to know that they are not fascists, not any more – though, of course, in a different way – than Nietzsche. The claim that “there is no meaningful distinction to be made between a far-right and a fascist ideology”, which is made in the motion against the Nietzsche Club, is astonishing by the stupidity of the binary, simplistic, way of thinking it reveals.
    But let’s assume, just for the sake of the argument, not only that the people in charge of this club are only interested in promoting anti-democratic political ideas, but also – since I don’t want my case to rest on the assumption that Nietzsche’s, Evola’s or de Benoist’s kind of anti-democratic ideas are superior to fascism – that what they are trying to promote is more specifically fascism.
    Even in that case, I don’t see why they couldn’t do it, as long they do so peacefully. If students are convinced that fascism is the way to go and want to convince others that it is, then I not only think they have the right to do so, but that it’s the duty of any self-respecting university to make sure they can.

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  17. Philippe Lemoine Avatar
    Philippe Lemoine

    First, I don’t think the distinction between a political organization and a group devoted to the discussion of political ideas is particularly interesting, at least in the context of this discussion. People who study political ideas generally have motivations for doing so which are not purely intellectual, but also political in a broad sense of the term, which I think is absolutely unproblematic and, in any case, probably inevitable.
    Many serious exegetes of Marx, perhaps most of them, are Marxist who are not just trying to make sense of Marx, but also to convince people that he was right. This doesn’t make what they say on Marx any less valuable and it certainly doesn’t mean that, when they are discussing Marx, they are only trying to convince people that he was right and not also trying to make sense of what he said.
    The students who voted the motion against the Nietzsche Club claim that its members have links to right-wing political organizations. As far as I can tell, they offer no evidence for this claim, but I have no doubt that it’s true. Indeed, given what they wrote on their posters and the authors they want to discuss, what would be surprising is if they did not have any connections to right-wing political organizations.
    But it doesn’t mean that, when they meet to discuss Nietzsche, Evola and de Benoist, they are not genuinely trying to understand their thought. Again, if you look at people who are running a discussion group about Marx, you’re likely to find that most are involved in various left-wing political organizations, but that doesn’t mean they are not genuinely trying to understand Marx’s though when they meet to discuss it. (In both cases, whether they are successful is a different matter, but one which is completely irrelevant here.)
    One doesn’t need to know much about Julius Evola and Alain de Benoist to know that they are not fascists, not any more – though, of course, in a different way – than Nietzsche. The claim that “there is no meaningful distinction to be made between a far-right and a fascist ideology”, which is made in the motion against the Nietzsche Club, is astonishing by the stupidity of the binary, simplistic, way of thinking it reveals.
    But let’s assume, just for the sake of the argument, not only that the people in charge of this club are only interested in promoting anti-democratic political ideas, but also – since I don’t want my case to rest on the assumption that Nietzsche’s, Evola’s or de Benoist’s kind of anti-democratic ideas are superior to fascism – that what they are trying to promote is more specifically fascism.
    Even in that case, I don’t see why they couldn’t do it, as long they do so peacefully. If students are convinced that fascism is the way to go and want to convince others that it is, then I not only think they have the right to do so, but that it’s the duty of any self-respecting university to make sure they can.

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  18. Eric Winsberg Avatar

    “If students are convinced that fascism is the way to go and want to convince others that it is, then I not only think they have the right to do so, but that it’s the duty of any self-respecting university to make sure they can.”
    I agree, I just want to insist that this is the only relevant claim to defend. Not that Nietzsche isnt a fascist, nor that Evola is respectable, nor that students have a right to discuss any philosophers that they like.

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  19. Sam Clark Avatar

    Philippe (if I may): thanks for the detailed reply (I assume you were partly replying to me?).
    I think you and others are making two related mistakes: (1) you’re taking it that a far right group on campus will just be discussing and promoting ideas, rather than recruiting and organizing; (2) you’re being liberal proceduralists, focussed only on legal form, in a case where the content of what’s being promoted is important.
    Now, I don’t know enough about the UCL traditionalists to know whether these are consequential mistakes in this particular case. Perhaps they’re a harmless reading group with a flamboyant taste in posters; perhaps they’re just the sort of campus tory whose only joy is annoying left-wingers. I guess that the UCL Union-members know more about what’s going on than any of us on this thread.
    We need to recognise that there is consequential politics here, not just a seminar debate. ‘I despise what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’ is something that’s easy to say for people who won’t actually be harmed by anti-egalitarian ‘radical and futuristic’ traditionalists.

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  20. r Avatar
    r

    “Is a ban the right response here? I don’t know. But discussing the matter as if we were all in John Stuart Mill’s study having a reasoned exchange of views before the taking of a toast and tea is point-missing.”
    It seems clear to me that JS Mill’s rousing defenses of free expression were not intended to apply only to comfortably mainstream technocrats meeting for toast and tea in well-appointed parlors, and that to construe them as such would be missing their point.

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  21. Sam Clark Avatar

    r: yeah, I regretted that pretty much as soon as I posted it, but I’ve tried to be clearer and less sarcastic at 19. I don’t think JSM would have disagreed with either (1) there’s a difference between discussion and political activism; or (2) proceduralism has proper limits. On Liberty – in my view correctly – defends free expression in a particular social and cultural context, and recognizes that there are real threats to that context. I’m suggesting that, if the UCL Union are correct that the Nietzsche Club is a front for far-right activism, it is potentially such a threat; and therefore that – as Eric Winsberg put it above – discussion of this case purely in terms of students’ free speech rights is a red herring.

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  22. Philippe Lemoine Avatar
    Philippe Lemoine

    I agree, I just want to insist that this is the only relevant claim to defend. Not that Nietzsche isnt a fascist, nor that Evola is respectable, nor that students have a right to discuss any philosophers that they like.
    I understood you before, but I don’t think it’s the only relevant claim to defend, for a reason that I have already pointed out above. Here is what you say:
    I think it is unfortunate that these students allowed themselves to be portrayed as wanting to restrict the discussion of ideas when it looks to me more like they were trying to restrict a kind of political activism.
    Now, this presupposes that one can always distinguish between the discussion of ideas and political activism, but my point is precisely that sometimes one cannot. People often want to discuss the ideas of a philosopher because they think he’s right and want to convince others of that. But that doesn’t meant they are not also genuinely attempting to understand that philosopher. They are just going to be sympathetic to his views when they discuss them and will try to defend them. If you want to restrict that kind of political activism, then you are de facto restricting the discussion of ideas.
    As I have already noted, in the motion against the Nietzsche Club, no evidence is given that it’s not really a discussion club where anti-democratic ideas are regarded with sympathy. In fact, the motion doesn’t even claim that it is just a front for a political organization, since it only says that “this group may have connections to the wider fascist movement and other organised groups” (emphasis is mine). As I have also note above, even if this were true, it wouldn’t prove that it’s just a front for a political organization. So we have every reason to believe that the students who voted this motion were in effect trying to restrict the discussion of ideas.
    That being said, I agree with you that, even if the reason they had given to ban the club was that it’s just a front for a political organization where no discussion of ideas really occurs, it would still have been unacceptable. Since I think that’s the most important point, I don’t want to exaggerate the extent of our disagreement.

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  23. Philippe Lemoine Avatar
    Philippe Lemoine

    Sam, thanks for your reply, I was indeed replying to you.
    I think you and others are making two related mistakes: (1) you’re taking it that a far right group on campus will just be discussing and promoting ideas, rather than recruiting and organizing; (2) you’re being liberal proceduralists, focussed only on legal form, in a case where the content of what’s being promoted is important.
    About your first point, I’m certainly not making any such assumption. I have just noted that no evidence had been given that, insofar as the Nietzsche Club is engaged in political activisim, the extent of that activism goes beyond the discussion of anti-egalitarian ideas. But, more importantly, even if they were not only discussing and promoting ideas, but also recruiting and organizing, I don’t see why they couldn’t do so. As for your second point, what you see as a mistake, I see as the essence of freedom of speech. Basically, I think that unless one is more or less explicitly inciting people to commit acts of violence, one should be free to say whatever one wants. Of course, there is bound to be some borderline cases, but I think it’s quite clear that this is not one of them, even if the Nitezsche Club was explicitly advocating fascism.
    I guess that the UCL Union-members know more about what’s going on than any of us on this thread.
    Quite frankly, having read their motion against the Nietzsche Club, I seriously doubt that the members of UCLU know more than anyone about anything.
    We need to recognise that there is consequential politics here, not just a seminar debate. ‘I despise what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it’ is something that’s easy to say for people who won’t actually be harmed by anti-egalitarian ‘radical and futuristic’ traditionalists.
    First, who gets to decide that a political doctrine is harmful enough that people shouldn’t have the right to discuss/promote it, the members of the UCLU? I sure as hell hope not. Based on the information we have, I think it’s far more likely that people will be harmed by the action of members of the UCL Union , than by members of the Nietzsche Club. As far as we know, the latter never attempted to restrict anyone’s freedom, which is more than we can say about the former.

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  24. Sam Clark Avatar

    Sorry to be slow to respond. On the off-chance that Philippe or anyone else is still reading this:
    Let me disclaim any ambition to adjudicate this particular case, about which I know next to nothing, and focus on the issues of principle that might apply to it.
    If I understand Philippe, his position – call it PL – is that harm or the threat of harm is a necessary condition of our using power to interfere with speech, discussion, public meeting, political organization, or political recruitment.
    I have three objections to PL:
    1) PL is politically naive. If you don’t interfere until there are blackshirts on the street beating people up, you’ve probably left it too late.
    2) PL assumes a contentious definition of ‘harm’. The ‘who gets to decide?’ question is a problem for everyone, not just for me: in particular, Philippe is claiming the right to decide (a) that a discussion seriously entertaining the idea that some historically and systematically oppressed kinds of people are inferior and should be subjected to hierarchical authority does not do or threaten harm; and that (b) preventing a group from using institutional capital (meeting rooms, communication networks, attention) to facilitate that discussion is or does.
    3) PL takes as settled what should be subject to democratic deliberation: the bounds of toleration.

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